Breaking the Good Girl Spell with Julie Vander Muelen

What if the rules you’ve been following are the bars of an invisible cage? In this powerful and deeply relatable conversation, Aideen sits down with empowerment coach and writer Julie Vander Muelen to unpack Good Girl Syndrome - the quiet conditioning that keeps women overgiving, overworking, and chasing approval long after they’ve already proven themselves.

Julie shares her journey, from living by social norm that didn’t fit, to finally understanding the pattern. And how trading “being good” for “being free” transformed everything from her career to her relationships. 

Explore:

* Awareness practices that help you catch the “Good Girl” voice before it takes the mic
* Simple boundary tools—like the power of “Let me think about it” and a clean, confident “No”
* How laughter, joy, and creativity reconnect you to desire without guilt
* The hidden cost of invisible labor and how to reclaim your time, worth, and voice

This episode is an invitation to stop earning your 'enoughness' and start trusting your own authority. Julie’s message is both grounding and liberating: You are already worthy. From that truth, desire becomes a compass not a crime.

Stay connected with Julie on LinkedIn and sign up for her free Sunday Sanctuary newsletter for reflective prompts and soulful stories that inspire courageous change. 

Connect with Julie
Instagram: @juvdmeul

LinkedIn: @julie-vander-meulen-the-empowerment-coach    

Website: www.ownyourlife.academy

Newletter: Free Own Your Life Newsletter     

Quiz: Good Girl Syndrome Quiz

Articles: My articles on Good Girl Syndrome 

Booking Page: Work with Julie

If this episode resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—it helps more women find their way back to freedom and joy.

Transcript

Aideen Ni Riada: 0:03

Welcome to the Resonate Podcast with Aideen. I'm Aideen Ni Riada, and my guest today is Julie Vander Muelen, founder of the Own Your Life Academy and a leading voice on good girl syndrome, the silent struggle of women who live by shoulds instead of what they truly want. As an empowerment coach, writer, and speaker, Julie helps women break free from that invisible cage and reconnect with who they really are, so they can shine not for approval but for freedom. Welcome, Julie. Great to have you here. Hi, Aideen. Thank you for having me. So, Julie, at what point did you realize that good girl syndrome was a thing? Was it something that you was ex you were experiencing yourself?

Julie Vander Meulen: 0:52

I was, uh, although in the beginning I didn't have that label of Good Girl Syndrome. Um, I first thought that what I had was imposter syndrome. I wasn't completely convinced by imposter syndrome, um, but I was a researcher uh back then, a few years ago. Um, and so that's what other people were telling me that I had imposter syndrome. And then I started thinking about it and I was like, I'm not sure because imposter syndrome implies that you are in an environment and you don't feel like you belong, right? And to me, I thought uh it was true at the beginning of my research journey, but after a year or so, I felt like I completely belonged. And still um, I felt like I was constantly trying to seek approval. I was constant constantly hard on myself. I was always in the background, never the person who, you know, wanted to shine, things like that. And so I started to notice that I had patterns that were beyond imposter syndrome. And I started thinking about you know, all these different patterns together. It seemed like I was acting like a good girl. And so it's when I started thinking about this good girl syndrome, just first by myself. Um, and then I started seeing that actually the other women, you know, the other researchers, my professors, and so on and so forth, they were also having these same patterns. And then, you know, like then I went further and further and further, but it's how it started. So it started from me seeing something that was there that was a sort of handicap for me, and then trying to understand, you know, like what label existed out there that would fit me, and none of them did, and so I created my own. That's kind of how things emerged.

Aideen Ni Riada: 2:26

Would you say that was one of the most the biggest blocks you had to in order to fully own your voice?

Julie Vander Meulen: 2:32

Yeah, yeah, probably because uh in my mind, at least how I've conceived of this concept is that there's many different aspects to that. Right now I have 10, 10 different items that I think are you know within Good Girl Syndrome. And so some of these things are, like I said, seeking approval, uh overworking, over-delivering, over giving, all these different things, right? Trying to be humble uh all the time. Like these were different patterns of the same thing. And together as a whole, they made me always try to look good, not not necessarily physically, but to look like I was a good person. Because I needed this constant validation, right, from other people. Um, and so yeah, it was in some ways, it was giving me a lot of approval because I was exactly what other people expected me to be, right? Always performing in the way I was expected to. Um, but one, I was suffering inside because when you're always trying to be what other people want you to be, you're never truly yourself, right? Um and uh also afterwards I realized it wasn't working for me. There's there's a point where this becomes a sort of ceiling because you can never reach for what is really inside of you and what you truly desire because you're always shape-shifting and trying to adapt to what other people think you can be. Um, and it turned out I had great ambitions uh that other people didn't see for me, right? So at some point, like that that was blocking me.

Aideen Ni Riada: 3:54

How did you move through it at the time?

Julie Vander Meulen: 3:58

Uh well, it was a journey. It was a journey for sure. Um I in the beginning, uh, it wasn't elegant at all. It was very messy for me. Um, mainly I went inward, um, and so I was just suffering inside and not talking about it, um, which is how this cause is really how it became so important for me to do to dedicate my life to this, because I realized actually so many women are in this position that they're like silently suffering inside in very, very deep ways, but don't have a way to express it because they're always trying to be perfect and look, you know, like be this good person. And so there's no space. They believe there's no space for them to open up with these things. And then afterwards, um, slowly, slowly through my own personal development, I went to a therapist. I started doing all sorts of um seminars, like I started working on myself. And slowly, slowly, I started saying yes to the things that were scaring me, and I started saying no to a lot of things as well, right? So it was this combination of basically it's all about risk taking in a way. It's like not seeking approval, not seeking the certainty of what you know, right? And trying to go beyond that and see what happens. So that's kind of how I went outside of it, and I think I made a realization in my mind that actually what I really wanted to be is free. It's not good, but it was free. And so the then the the search for freedom is a very different path from the search for goodness, right? And so I realized, oh, I actually like what would I do? Like if I wanted to be free, if I were free right now, what are the actions I would take? What are the thoughts I would have? And that's kind of how I shifted from one to the other. But it was very messy, it was it's been a long process, and it still is today.

Aideen Ni Riada: 5:39

Yeah, and it takes a lot of courage as well to make those different choices. What's interesting is um I did a workshop with a voice coach called Colum Nolan. And he he was asking me why I was there, and I was already doing some singing, I had already set up my business. Like on the outside, it looked like I was using my voice, right? Yes. And he said, What is it you want? And I said, I want to be free, same as you, right?

Julie Vander Meulen: 6:05

Yes.

Aideen Ni Riada: 6:06

Um, and he and he said, Well, what what is it, what's stopping you? And what was stopping me and would still can kind of rear its head up was a phrase that my father said to me when I was younger, which was you can't make money in music, which was his opinion, and obviously not necessarily the full truth. Um, so there's there was this thing that I was being held back by that related to yeah, what what my father was saying to me, and also wanting obviously his approval, yes, meant that that was a very significant thing.

Julie Vander Meulen: 6:43

Yes. Yeah, you made that, I mean, I mean, unconsciously, of course, but you made that your story, right? Um funny how we do that. Funny how we do that. Take other people one thing that they could say, right? One belief that someone has, and then we build our whole lives around those types of things, and it becomes a prison. At least it can become a prison, right? Uh yeah.

Aideen Ni Riada: 7:03

Yeah, it certainly does restrict what you decide to do next. So being courageous obviously has to come into this idea of stepping into that unknown that you mentioned. What kind of practices or tools do you use to help you take those courageous steps?

Julie Vander Meulen: 7:22

Um there's many things I do. I would say the the first thing is to me, everything starts with first awareness, right? Of like, yeah, taking a little bit of introspective time of like looking yourself in the mirror and asking, how is this working for me right now? Like what I'm doing right now, how how is this working for me right now? And um it seems to me that oftentimes when you reach that space where you ask yourself these types of questions, it's usually because things are not working out the way that you expected them to, or you don't feel so great, right? So you start from that place of saying, actually, what I'm doing right now, how I'm behaving, isn't working for me. And then from there, and I do that very regularly to see like what's not working for me and you know what's behind it. What is what is um, you know, what what what what blocks are there? Like what why is this not working for me? Is it something external? Sometimes it is. Most of the times I find in my own life uh and in the lives of the women that I coach that it has something to do with me and my beliefs and how I'm acting. So I would say that's the first thing. And then I make a decision. I made a pact with myself a few years ago. Perhaps that's something useful for a listener as well, is that um it's I find it very important to make decisions for yourself and sort of have pacts with yourself. Doesn't mean that my pact will be the same as yours, Aveen, right? But my pact with myself is that whenever I feel, because I never want to be in a dark space like I was years ago, like I spent most of my life being in. And so the what the only way that I know out of dark spaces is to shine light on what's not working for me. And so I made a promise to myself that whenever I could see that on a regular basis for a few days I am not feeling great, I would pause. I would force myself to pause, which is not my my natural tendency. My tendency is to run for things and take big leaps and stuff like that. I would pause and ask myself, you know, hard questions of what's not working, and also choose again, who do I want to be? Like when I'm doing all these different actions, it's not just changing the actions, it's like who am I trying to be? A bit like what you were saying with the story, right, from your dad, right? For me, um, I will always go back to one, two, three stories that I tell myself about myself, right? And I go back to those without noticing. Um, and so then I'm like, oh, so I talked about the good girl version. I'm thinking okay, so now I'm being a good girl, right? So is this who I want to be? No, I know I want to be a free girl, right? If I'm if I make it a bit simplistic. So, how does a free girl react to the situation versus a good girl? And I find that having those two identities and knowing, like, kind of impersonating both, uh, it helps me a lot. It helps me so much. And perhaps the third thing that I could say, I mean, I have two more things that I could say. Um, the the the third thing that I that I would say is that um having great friends makes a big difference. I say this all the time. Oftentimes the independent women that I coach, uh, it's not something they like to hear in the beginning because they like to do everything themselves and they don't want to ask for help, which had has been my pattern as well in the past. Um and so the idea of having friends and telling them about the truth of what's going on with you inside and not the polished image that you uh that you show on the outside is terrifying to most women that I coach at least. Um and but I think that this is a great, great thing to have great friends, at least one, that you can tell the truth to. Um, because the the chances are if you find the right type of person, she will be struggling with some version of what you have as well, right? And you opening up or them opening up, um, it creates a space for you to one, uh just let all of that stuff out, which is very necessary. But also for me, my friends, um, they took this role, I didn't ask them to, but they pinpoint to my good girl tendencies. So my best friends, they will catch me. They'll be like, oh, good girl is back, right? And I say that to them as well. And I find that extremely useful because then before I go to a dark space, they can pinpoint to the the, you know, these little sneaky ways that I have a tendency to go back to. And they can spot them when I cannot, because you know, I'm just living, right? And so sometimes you just slip into those patterns again. So I would say that that is that, yeah, I will I will stop with this third one. I think that that's essential in my life, and I think it's essential in the women that I coach as well. I can see a huge difference from the moment that they have someone else. Usually it starts with me, right? They come to me, and so I'm the first person that they share these things to, but the goal is not for them to spend their lives with me, right? And be dependent on me. The idea would be for them to be able to replicate this type of relationship with you know other people outside, and so it makes a huge difference in their lives. So, yeah.

Aideen Ni Riada: 12:14

Yes, absolutely. We need each other clearly that reflection is so important. I mean, I think yeah, I'm quite like you in that I I have to force myself to pause, you know, because I will keep moving and there's a comfort in the movement. Yes, and I don't want to pause for long, like I don't want to get stuck in the pause, but I I sometimes need to ask myself that question. So choose again who do I want to be. Yeah, that's an amazing yeah, it's very useful.

Julie Vander Meulen: 12:47

It's very useful, yeah.

Aideen Ni Riada: 12:51

And a lot of people don't feel that they can want what they want, in that maybe they don't allow themselves to even dream because wanting something means you have to have an your an imagination, yes, that something in the future can be different. Yes. What kind of practices do you have around helping people to allow that imagination, helping them to start to see that better future, that free version of themselves?

Julie Vander Meulen: 13:21

Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. Um, so perhaps I can give you an example of how my the the first session that I have with someone, how it usually goes. So I told you a bit about the profiles that come to me. So usually in the first session is pivotal because it's the moment where we establish trust, right? It's like a moment where they need to take a big leap of faith, which they're not used to doing in this area of their life, of trusting me from the get-go with the deepest, darkest secrets, right? And so it's not always easy. Um, but the first thing that I do, and I do it both for them to relax, right? And both for them to like allow another version of themselves, is that I invite them to like I understand that all the things they're telling me are about the good girl, what I call the good girl. So the the version of themselves that see all the obligations and the shoots and all of that. If you are in that space, you are in a controlling mode. In a controlling mode, there is no imagination and there is no creativity, there is survival. And in survival, there is no space for yeah, any joy, even, right? It's not a space where you see joy. So the first thing for me to do is to say, like, okay, so if we remove all these obligations, right, and all the things that are weighing you down, like take, please take like two, three, two, three deep breaths, you know, like just let it all out. Pretend I'm not here, and you're like a little kid, and you can you you're dreaming about the things you used to dream about. What does what did that look like? And I can see them resisting a little bit, then there's a smile, and then you can see with their eyes, right? They're looking up, they're looking on the side, they get into their own little bubble. I don't exist anymore for the split second there. And so they go back to the joy, right? It's like always something joyful that they come up with, and it can be crazy. It can usually doesn't have anything to do with what they want to do now. But when they reconnect from that's that space of joy and creativity and imagination, then from there, right? From there, I can ask, okay, so what about now? Like I can see you have a beautiful smile. What about now? Like from this space, what what would you like now? Like, forget, don't go back to the obligations. What would you like now? And I say I say crazy things. I say, like, can't it can't be that you never want to work again. Perhaps you want to go to the Bahamas and live on the beach for the rest. I don't know, you know, they laugh. And when you bring in laughter to other people but to yourself as well, all of what I'm saying now applies to us as well. If you bring you are able to bring in laughter and you start to laugh, you start to smile, you feel the joy, from that space imagination can come back, right? So I would say that like to me, the the big thing for me when I coach, but what I do with myself as well, is first find my joy. It can be just a little spark, and then from that space start to dream and wonder what happens because it's a different space in my brain, right? And so, yeah, I would say to me that's the biggest thing that you can do for someone else as well when they're in a in a dark spot. Not always, but there's always a moment when you can crack a joke or you can do something silly and so on, and just or make them move a little bit, and they switch, they go out of this dark space and they go into the joy, and from the joy, you can pretty much conceive anything you want. It's a different space, it's a different you basically, a different identity that most of these women they forgot that they even had, but it's there.

Aideen Ni Riada: 16:38

Yeah, that's amazing. I love that idea of being able to dream again. And I know myself that I have shut that down at different times. My screensaver on my phone right now is um I'm 100% aligned to focusing on what I want. And that just feels so bad. Like I'm a bad girl for wanting what I want. Um so, but the thing is, we get into situations, right, and we're like dealing with our boss or we're dealing with our partner, and we have that tendency to defer to what they need. Oh, yeah, sure, I'll get your dry cleaning for you, even if you're having the busiest day of your entire year. So, how what do you help people, or what kind of strategies do you give people to use in the moment when they're dealing with that situation where they have that choice to make?

Julie Vander Meulen: 17:32

Um, I would say the first thing is usually we don't realize we're making these types of decisions in the moment. So it goes faster than we can think. And so I think the first thing that I'd say before the moment uh even happens is to have this as a habit. Like practice this habit of asking yourself the question when no one else is around, do I want to do this? Like, or do I think I should be doing this? Because I think the the first step to me is this is like clarifying this for yourself by yourself without anyone else around, so that when the the the thing happens and ADN comes to me and she's like, Hey, can you go? Can you fold my clothes? Then instead of going to the default, you know, of like, yes, of course, you know, I'm I I love you, I want to do this for you, instead of going to that space of trying to be good and trying to be pleasing, I can just I have the habit inside of me of wondering, do I really want to do this or not? And I think this split second makes a huge difference. Um I would suggest a second thing as well, which is that um oftentimes you were we were talking both of us about pause, right? And how it's not so easy sometimes for either of us to pause. And I think a lot of women um don't allow themselves to pause in real life situations either. We're always reacting to things or to conversations. And a lot of the times what I tell to to what I tell my clients is you know, you are allowed when someone makes a request that your default is either um no, but if that's too much to say no to begin with, you can say, you know what, let me think about it. Or like, I need to think about this. Like it's allowed to say these types of things out loud. And it also gives a sense of, in the beginning, some people might not be used to it, right? So they might be a bit surprised that you're not saying yes, but it makes sense to people, right? It makes sense to people that you would need some time to make such a decision. And then, you know, you still have a few minutes or an hour or whatever it is to say, like, actually, I will go and I will think about it. And the the value of that is also that most people, if they have to wait for your answer for a five-minute thing that they could have done themselves, they'll do it themselves. And so you'll start to see all sorts of mini things, like little chores that people give to you because you're so pleasing and you think it's nothing for you, and you act like it's nothing, right? They will start to do them themselves because you're not as convenient anymore, right? As a person. And they don't even feel any sort of resentment, all of the fears that we may have inside. Just it, this whole thing disappears, a part of it disappears, just because you you paused and you allowed yourself to say, you know what, I need to actually think about things. I need some, you know, some time to make these types of decisions. So they're they're small things, but they're they make a major difference in your life and how you apprehend things and what you allow yourself to do, and how you allow yourself to respond to things as well.

Aideen Ni Riada: 20:22

Yes. I was at a meeting recently where someone pointed out that no is a complete sentence. Yes.

Julie Vander Meulen: 20:29

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and we don't need to justify. I think that's another thing to learn. That there's no a lot of us, I think, grew up in households or in school systems where you are requested, like a yes comes out like this. You're supposed to say yes and just do the thing. When it's a no, we feel compelled uh to justify ourselves. When there's when you think about it objectively outside of the system you are you were in or you are in right now, there's no reason why you would justify yourself, like why would you need to justify yourself? I I the idea of justifying yourself as if you did something wrong. How is that wrong to say no? Right? Yeah, there's there's an association there, right? Um, and so that's a beautiful realization to have as well. If I feel like I need to justify myself, I can also pause because perhaps it's an old mechanism that is not, you know, meant for who I am today. It's a mechanism of a little girl, you know, who was scared in some way, right? Who felt she needed to justify herself, who felt guilty or ashamed or whatever the emotion was. And perhaps it's not who we want to be today. Um, so I think that's a powerful thing as well.

Aideen Ni Riada: 21:34

Yeah. And it's, I mean, I think it's interesting because it is a socialization thing and it is a generational thing. It is not that long ago when women weren't allowed to really work, or they weren't allowed to work once they got married. Yes. Um, and or they were they were the ones always expected to look after elderly uh parents or grandparents, and they were the ones expected to care for children. And a lot of the roles that they did were unpaid work. Yes, and it wasn't it it wasn't being valued because it was a form of unpaid work, and it somehow women's roles were diminished, and even now um women don't get paid for the same uh job that a man is doing, they don't get paid the same wage, yeah, which is um really outdated. But also, if the women themselves are diminishing themselves and they're not able to ask and not able to want what they want, yeah, then it makes it a lot more difficult for this system to change. Like we have to change ourselves as people first, right?

Julie Vander Meulen: 22:41

Yes. And I think in what you said, there's also something really powerful, which is money, worth, and what is valuable, right? And um, I mean, to in in my world, there is no like I I don't have strong opinions about whether women should work or not work, like how they should, you know, I don't have these types of opinions. So in in in my world, I'm thinking whatever you spend your time on, you know, is if it's worth your time, like it's it's worth your time. Like whatever you chose to spend your time on is worth your time. And if some of these things are also contributing to your to your household in some way, whether they're rewarded by money or not, they are worth something. They have value, right? And so I think then if we I'm not saying that's what we should do, but oftentimes we do that. We equate what we do with who we are, and so we see the value in who we are because of the things we do, right? We can change that, but most of us we still have that to some extent, right? I feel proud of myself every single day, in part because of the beautiful things that I did, the ways that I contributed, right? And so if I can start valuing every single thing that I do, it changes my whole perspective of myself. It also changes my perspective on how much I should take on or not. Because if I find that every single thing that I do is valuable, as you know, I live, for example, with my grandma, a lot of what I do in a day is small little tasks where I take care of my grandma in one way or other. If I value all these little tasks throughout the day, then the workload that I that I allow myself to have is much smaller than when I don't, right? Because I'm thinking, well, I did these 15 tasks for my grandma. And so that on me and my energy, right, is valuable as a I'm valuable as a person. Those tasks are valuable, but also this means I spend this amount of time on these types of tasks. So that means I, you know, if I if I'm awake for, let's say, 16 hours, if the the 10 or 12 hours are productive hours, then inside of those I should put the ones about my grandma and not be working 10 hours on top of the other things and stressing out because I'm not meeting, you know what I mean? Like deadlines that I would have had if I was not taking care of my grandma. And I think I'm putting my grandma in there because I think many women have children or have loved ones that they take care of or communities that they take care of, and they don't count the hours, the energy, the value of the work they do, of the productive work they do in our society, in our families, for themselves, you know, not for themselves but for others. Um, they don't value that. And other people as a result also don't value that. I'm not saying it's women's fault, but I'm saying it's contributing. That if we start valuing what we do, then for me, if you were to tell me, Julie, you know, today you did nothing, I would look at you and I'd be like, Aidine, haven't you seen how I spent my day? I did 15 things for my grandma. Like to me, this is the most important thing in my world right now, right? So I would be able to reframe things as well. So yeah, I think it's a very important conversation. Value in women's work and you know, what's considered valuable and or not, it's very, very important.

Aideen Ni Riada: 25:43

Yes, and to make that a choice, that you're what are you investing in and not leave yourself completely out of that? Like don't do 15 things for your grandma and never anything for yourself. Exactly. Um if if if you could imagine one listener was to take your words straight to their heart today, what ripple effect would you hope it would create in their lives?

Julie Vander Meulen: 26:07

Um from the conversation we've had, um, but I think in general as well, my deep desire is for women to see their own worth, is to understand that they have worth exactly as they are today, not for who they are meant to become, right, but exactly who they are today and who they always were, right? Um, that they have worth and that they are lovely as they are. And it doesn't mean that we stop, you know, trying to be better than we are, that we don't, you know, strive for something more, but it just means I'm okay the way that I am right now. I'm lovable, you know, these types of things. And I think that deep down, every single woman that I that that I cross paths with, men, men as well, by the way, but you know, it's not my specialty, we all crave connection and love. We all want to be loved. And the easiest way for us to uh make sure that we are loved is to love ourselves, is to look at ourselves and to give ourselves this, you know, this joy of saying, you know what, I'm pretty cool. Like I can look at myself in the mirror with all my flaws and all the things that I see that I would like to change. As I am today, I'm pretty cool, right? And what I did is pretty cool. So I think that's if there was one thing that that I would love for anyone who listens to this to you know leave with, including you and including me, is to leave this space and feel like you know what, I'm pretty cool. And to say that to someone else would be even more fantastic. Uh because we all need to hear it from someone else as well, no.

Aideen Ni Riada: 27:31

Absolutely. Um, to be to know that you are lovely just as you are. I just loved how you said that. You're lovely, yeah. Um, and cool, cool too. Yes, and smart and funny. I remember I asked a young girl um who was, I mean, maybe maybe 12, I said, which would you prefer to be smart or funny? And she said, well, this one is both smart and funny and this and this and the other. And I was like, my mind was blown, right? Oh, that's beautiful. I love that she responded like good for her and good for us. Yeah, she she corrected me in my thinking of like it's an either-or situation, and I think that's important. But when we say what we want, yes, we're not saying everyone else can't get their what they want as well.

Julie Vander Meulen: 28:18

Yeah, yeah, that is true. That is completely true. And also that if you become a bit less, if I go back, for example, to the good girl, if you become become a bit less of the good girl, it doesn't mean that you're not good anymore. It just means that it allows space, like the little girl you met you met, and how she responded to you. It just makes space for you to be free to be whatever part of you you you want to be. So you can be fun and you can be smart and you can be good, you know, like you can be all these different things and you can be adventurous at the same time, at different degrees, whenever you choose to, right? But it's it becomes comes back to being a choice of like which aspect of you you want, you know.

Aideen Ni Riada: 28:58

Yeah, yeah, I love that because if we are overgiving in one way or another, that diminishes our bandwidth, our capacity and our resources to put into the things that maybe are more uh important to us, and those things that are feel really important to us, that's our our purpose and our potential. If we don't step into that, then that's not good for the world either. Exactly.

Julie Vander Meulen: 29:25

Because we're holding back, exactly, and also we're not as joyful, uh, which I think is you know, this how I is how we started, where I went, you know, how I started this. But I think joy is essential. Oftentimes we think it's something trivial, but it's not, it's essential for us to feel alive and to feel good inside, but it's also essential for the people who are around us, because when we are in joy, we bring joy to others and they need that as well. It's the spark of life, you know. It's like love is very important for sure, but joy so is joy, right? Um, and there is no way to be joyful if you're always doing things for others because you feel resentful. You feel misunderstood, you start feeling lonely. All these things are not could conducive to joy, right? They they're conducive to you feel feeling miserable, right? So yeah, very, very important stuff.

Aideen Ni Riada: 30:11

Oh, I've loved this conversation. Loved, loved, loved it. Um this I would I could keep talking with you, Julie, for sure. We need to wrap things up. And I'm wondering, what would you how would you suggest people keep in touch with you or find out more about what you do?

Julie Vander Meulen: 30:28

Um I would say the best way to keep in touch with me is either to go uh and visit my LinkedIn profile. I post there three times a week. Everything is free. Um, and that gives you an idea of my my most recent thoughts on Good Girl Syndrome or on personal development. And then I also invite you to subscribe to my free newsletter. I have a Sunday Sanctuary, it's how I call it, newsletter, where I have over a thousand women who read it every single week. And I've devised it as part story and part um sort of a personal development reflections where you can ask yourself some questions and see like what part patterns are holding you back. And it's it's uh I post it every single Sunday so that you can do it in a reflective mode when perhaps you're not working and before you start your new week. And so, in order to do that, I'm I imagine you will post the link on uh on under the yeah, okay, yeah.

Aideen Ni Riada: 31:20

So we can post well, I'll add those to the show notes and and sign me up. I would love to. Um we're allowed to want what we want, yeah, and it serves the world to follow what we would really want in the world. So on a larger scale, we see what's needed, but we actually need to do the work in our own personal lives. Yeah. Um, I think that that's the harder thing, right?

Julie Vander Meulen: 31:56

Yeah. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's worth it.

Aideen Ni Riada: 31:59

Thank you so much, Julie, and thank you all for listening. Please get in touch with with Julie and find out more. Sign up for her newsletter. And if you would like to uh find joy through singing, of course, that's what I do too, and I would love to bring you um on a journey through that as well. Thank you, everyone, and goodbye. Thank you.